From: harbison@unlinfo.unl.edu (gerry harbison) Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic Subject: more Irish than the Irish themselves Date: 1 Dec 1993 20:46:56 GMT Organization: University of Nebraska--Lincoln Summary: An unusual happening in Boston on St. Patrick's day. Several people have objected to a statement I made that Irish Americans are American, not Irish. They apparently feel they're being excluded from 'Irishness'. I'd like to tell a story of how the boot was once on the other foot. It's a true story, and it happened to me personally, although I admit it's unlikely enough to invite disbelief. The first year I was in Boston, about 15 years ago, I, a friend of mine who was also from Dublin, and another guy from Wexford, decided to celebrate St. Patrick's day a l'Americain, by going on a pub-crawl through South Boston. We figured (being just off the boat) that as three clods freshly dropped off the old sod, we'd be welcomed in this Irish-American neighbourhood, and probably wouldn't have to buy a beer for ourselves all evening. So, about mid-afternoon, we took the subway to Andrew Square and walked a few blocks to a bar someone had told us about. (The usual kind of place, green shamrocks all over everything, etc.) We order a round, declined the green food colouring the bartender offered us, and settled down to drink. About five minutes later the bartender sidled up to us and asked "Where are you guys from?" "From Ireland" we replied proudly. Knowing Americans like details we added that two of us were from Dublin and one from Wexford. We then waited smugly for "drinks on the house, lads!" But instead.... "Well would you mind finishing up your drinks and going somewhere else?" "Why?" my friend asked, aghast. "Well. there's a bunch of regulars from the neighborhood who'll be coming down later on, and they won't want outsiders who aren't Irish in the bar on St. Paddy's Day" "But we *are* Irish. We're from Dublin, he's from Wexford..." "No, you're not Irish, you're not from South Boston" And so that's how I was thrown out of an `Irish' bar in the most `Irish' area of Boston, on the most `Irish' day of the year, for being Irish. (You couldn't make this up!) We reconvened in what I consider a real Irish bar in Cambridge. Where they had a decent pint and there was no green food colouring in sight. Gerry Harbison =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From: tpme14@tvis1.tv.TEK.COM (Thomas A. Molamphy) Subject: Re: more Irish than the Irish themselves Organization: Tektronix TV Division Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1993 00:11:12 GMT In article <2divs0$773@crcnis1.unl.edu> harbison@unlinfo.unl.edu (gerry harbison) writes: [snip] I can well believe your story Gerry! I had the pleasure of staying in South Boston for a few weeks in the Summer of 1987. While riding on buses and the subway and just walking down the street I was verbally abused on numerous occasions by "Irish" gangs picking on ... you guessed it! An Irish guy!! I think it was the fact that I didn't have a celtics jacket that gave me away . . . Tom ************************************************************************ Tom Molamphy, Tektronix - Televison Products, Beaverton, Oregon, USA. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From: bw026969@express.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu (Brendan Wilkins) Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic Subject: Re: more Irish than the Irish themselves Date: 2 Dec 1993 00:31:27 GMT Organization: Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Tx Summary: more stories from the front [Gerry Harbisons tale deleted] I had a similar experience some years ago. Three of us brave Irish young lads were invited to debate at Harvard on a topic related to NI, and having been told the trip was free, and we could eat and drink all we wanted for free too, we accepted. My companions Declan and David were, like myself, Irish. Declan was from Andy's Town in Belfast and had an accent accordingly. David had a generic West Brit accent (years of boarding school in England, followed by a Trinners education) and I spoke with the blas of the Wesht. We arrived in Boston and were informed that we would debate a pro-British stance while our Harvard opponents would take a Nationalist viewpoint. Full of free drink we took to the podium and won the debate handily. The problems began when during the judging the floor was opened to questions from the audience. Unbeknownst to us the audience was full of Noraid and AOH types who were mightily upset at our pro-British standpoint. We suffered insult after insult until finally a gentleman rose and roared that he had left Co. Mayo not forty-years ago this Christmas, and he'd be damned if any young gits could tell him anything of the situation in Ireland/NI that he didn't already know. To which Declan replied that he had left Andersonstown not 48 hours ago and he'd be damned if some yank in yellow trousers and a green shirt with a vague memory of the bogs of Mayo would tell him about the situation in NI. After the crowd was calmed the results were announced and the various dignitaries sped to the post debate reception,(sponsored by Bushmills and the Irish consulate) attended by Irish and American politicians, reporters from the Boston media, and some other half known people with a vague connection to matters Irish. The cadre from the Irish Times (who had organized the debate) fell over themselves to be the ones to escort John Kenneth Galbraith (who had chaired the debate) to the reception and we were forgotten about. Forgotten that is until the elderly gent from Mayo blindsided Declan, knocking him to the floor, then standing over him and calling him a traitor to Ireland and Catholicism, and sure candidate to burn in hell if he ever got out of Boston alive. I had my hair pulled by a woman with a strong Boston accent who was chiding me about the treatment of political prisoners in the Republic in a prison I had never heard of so we may have been discussing different Republics. This carried despite us pointing out that we had not chosen which side we would debate, and that our arguments were not necessarily our own thoughts on the matter. David even tried telling them that we were too drunk to know what we'd actually said, but even this didn't work. No to these "Irish" people nothing short of the truth of their own mythology was acceptable from the mouth of someone claiming to be Irish, and that was that. We did finally get to the reception with the help of the Harvard campus police where we had the opportunity to meet and have a drink with Seamus Heaney, a very fine Irishman indeed. Later we went to the Plough and the Stars and got in trouble there too but that's another story..... Is mise le meas, Brendan Wilkins. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From: tngan@porpoise.chvpkh.chevron.com (Nicholas J. Gant) Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic Subject: Re: more Irish than the Irish themselves Date: 2 Dec 93 15:49:43 GMT In article <2djd0v$bfv@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>, bw026969@express.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu (Brendan Wilkins) writes: [Gerry Harbisons & BW's tales deleted] > To these "Irish" people nothing short of the truth of their own > mythology was acceptable from the mouth of someone claiming to be > Irish, and that was that. My heart bleeds for you - and I'm not being sarcastic. Without appearing trivial, I'm sure even an Orangeman would be outraged at this misrepresentation of the country. On this side of the water, they'd have probably backed you up to the hilt if they'd been there. Have you never attended a rugby international where the Soldier's Song & the Sash were sung, the one following the other ? Nick Gant My opinions are my own. Chevron Overseas Pet. Inc. San Ramon, Life is too important to be California taken seriously - Wilde. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From: bw026969@express.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu (Brendan Wilkins) Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic Subject: Re: more Irish than the Irish themselves Date: 2 Dec 1993 17:19:01 GMT In article <1993Dec2.074943@porpoise.chvpkh.chevron.com>, tngan@porpoise.chvpkh.chevron.com (Nicholas J. Gant) writes: > Have you never attended a rugby international where the Soldier's Song & > the Sash were sung, the one following the other ? I certainly have, an experience which I miss greatly in the U.S. I have sung the Sash with some Unionist friends of mine on St. Patricks day here (!), along with a good smattering of "Republican" rebel songs. It's interesting to watch the Irish American rebel soldiers clap along to the Sash and join in the chorus without a clue as to what they're singing about. I suspect the same holds true for the Republican rebel songs. It's always been my opinion that outside of Britain, Ireland, and NI, or absent political discussion, people of any tradition from NI have far more in common with one another, and with citizens of the Republic, or Scots, than they do with any other single group. I think most of us take this for granted and are not surprised by it. It certainly does surprise those who make hay from division, and the patrons of the plastic leprechaun industry (which always have "De/anta sa tSi/n" written on the bottom). Is mise le meas, Brendan Wilkins. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From: harbison@unlinfo.unl.edu (gerry harbison) Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic Subject: Re: more Irish than the Irish themselves Date: 3 Dec 1993 15:59:29 GMT kgloria@williams.edu (Karen Gloria) writes: >[tale of ugly display of rude behavior by some Americans deleted] >Dear Gerry and Brendan, > I don't know if it helps much, but I apologise for the >behavior of these fellow Americans and residents of "the >Commonwealth" (Massachusetts). Behavior like theirs is shameful and >inexcusable. I don't think there's any need for an apology here. I was amused, not offended. And you're not responsible for the behavior of the residents of Southie. Hell, I was a Mass. resident for 8 years; if I'd felt responsible for the doings of evey bozo in the Commonwealth, I'd have got out after a week! Gerry Harbison. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From: bw026969@express.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu (Brendan Wilkins) Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic Subject: Re: more Irish than the Irish themselves Date: 4 Dec 1993 00:02:20 GMT > I don't think there's any need for an apology here. I was amused, not > offended. And you're not responsible for the behavior of the residents Similarly I don't think theres a need for apology either. I view the whole incident as amusing rather than insulting. I have had some great times in Boston, and have met some fine people there. If I ever manage to escape my exile in Houston, I'd love to work in Boston, nasty Irish Americans (or American Irish) and all. Is mise le meas, Brendan Wilkins.